Comments on: Microsoft hits hard in the RIA space http://flexblog.faratasystems.com/2007/05/01/microsoft-hits-hard-in-the-ria-space A blog about our experience with Adobe Flex Fri, 03 Sep 2010 02:18:04 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Valery Silaev http://flexblog.faratasystems.com/2007/05/01/microsoft-hits-hard-in-the-ria-space/comment-page-1#comment-14335 Valery Silaev Thu, 03 May 2007 23:41:39 +0000 http://flexblog.faratasystems.com/?p=189#comment-14335 Probably java.util.* is what every Java application needs, even if it's running in browser But JDBC, RMI (or parts of RMI) and tons of deprecated API shipped with JRE are the libraries I will happily live without on desktop. Btw, does anyone else besides Sun distribute CORBA these days? ;) And sure packaging a database in JDK is just a bad joke. VS Probably java.util.* is what every Java application needs, even if it’s running in browser
But JDBC, RMI (or parts of RMI) and tons of deprecated API shipped with JRE are the libraries I will happily live without on desktop.

Btw, does anyone else besides Sun distribute CORBA these days? ;)

And sure packaging a database in JDK is just a bad joke.

VS

]]> By: Yakov Fain http://flexblog.faratasystems.com/2007/05/01/microsoft-hits-hard-in-the-ria-space/comment-page-1#comment-14091 Yakov Fain Wed, 02 May 2007 17:22:13 +0000 http://flexblog.faratasystems.com/?p=189#comment-14091 Jonathan, You made my day – not to many bloggers have comments made by a CEO of a huge corp :) Now back to technicalities. I can only guess that you are hinting about the new language for declarative GUI programming in Java, which is very interesting, but… I’m more concerned about these things in the order of importance: 1. Red-neck proof JVM install. It should not take more 20 seconds to have JVM installed on the PC of a truck driver from Alabama. 2. The size of the JVM – 16MB? You’ve got to be kidding. I know that the Java Web Browser version is in the works, which can run HelloWorld in a 3Mb JVM (I do not know the latest figures though), which is not impressive at all Recently I’ve been working on a Flex GUI for a J2EE project, and I needed to use a Dictionary collection of ActionScript 3.0 (http://livedocs.adobe.com/flash/9.0/ActionScriptLangRefV3/flash/utils/Dictionary.html ) . The class Dictionary is inherited from the class Object (the same as in Java), but it has only one method there, while Java’s dictionary has a dozen (http://java.sun.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/util/Dictionary.html ). My first reaction was, “How come this AS Dictionary does not even have an API to get a collection of elements – now I need to manually loop through this collection…” But maybe this is the reason that Flash Player 9 that hosts two VMs weighs only 1.2Mb. I’ll wait for JavaOne announcements hopefully about a light-weight VM for a new language that will easily talk to Java on the back. Jonathan,

You made my day – not to many bloggers have comments made by a CEO of a huge corp :)

Now back to technicalities. I can only guess that you are hinting about the new language for declarative GUI programming in Java, which is very interesting, but… I’m more concerned about these things in the order of importance:

1. Red-neck proof JVM install. It should not take more 20 seconds to have JVM installed on the PC of a truck driver from Alabama.

2. The size of the JVM – 16MB? You’ve got to be kidding. I know that the Java Web Browser version is in the works, which can run HelloWorld in a 3Mb JVM (I do not know the latest figures though), which is not impressive at all

Recently I’ve been working on a Flex GUI for a J2EE project, and I needed to use a Dictionary collection of ActionScript 3.0 (http://livedocs.adobe.com/flash/9.0/ActionScriptLangRefV3/flash/utils/Dictionary.html ) . The class Dictionary is inherited from the class Object (the same as in Java), but it has only one method there, while Java’s dictionary has a dozen (http://java.sun.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/util/Dictionary.html ). My first reaction was, “How come this AS Dictionary does not even have an API to get a collection of elements – now I need to manually loop through this collection…”
But maybe this is the reason that Flash Player 9 that hosts two VMs weighs only 1.2Mb.

I’ll wait for JavaOne announcements hopefully about a light-weight VM for a new language that will easily talk to Java on the back.

]]> By: Jonathan Schwartz http://flexblog.faratasystems.com/2007/05/01/microsoft-hits-hard-in-the-ria-space/comment-page-1#comment-14074 Jonathan Schwartz Wed, 02 May 2007 15:35:00 +0000 http://flexblog.faratasystems.com/?p=189#comment-14074 Stay tuned for JavaOne :-) Stay tuned for JavaOne :-)

]]> By: anatole tartakovsky http://flexblog.faratasystems.com/2007/05/01/microsoft-hits-hard-in-the-ria-space/comment-page-1#comment-14069 anatole tartakovsky Wed, 02 May 2007 13:50:13 +0000 http://flexblog.faratasystems.com/?p=189#comment-14069 In order to take off you would need binary compatibility of Java code. That most certainly means extension of the current Flash VM to include Java interpreter first and JIT later - task similar in size with the scope of Apollo project. However, it would be strange if Apollo would not have it in roadmap. Regards, Anatole Tartakovsky In order to take off you would need binary compatibility of Java code. That most certainly means extension of the current Flash VM to include Java interpreter first and JIT later – task similar in size with the scope of Apollo project. However, it would be strange if Apollo would not have it in roadmap.

Regards,
Anatole Tartakovsky

]]> By: Vadim Melnik http://flexblog.faratasystems.com/2007/05/01/microsoft-hits-hard-in-the-ria-space/comment-page-1#comment-14027 Vadim Melnik Wed, 02 May 2007 08:46:41 +0000 http://flexblog.faratasystems.com/?p=189#comment-14027 To finally set cross over WPF/E-Silverlight today I installed alpha 1.1 and... surprise for me: now it's something else, now it's what I expected from Feb preview before and didn't see at all. Now it contains .NET runtime like mscorlib (2Mb - the same size as it was in .NET 1.0) System and brothers with scripting. It will need in some platform neutral UI controls library, ala nowadays Windows Forms and better communication services, but it's not going to be very expensive - few Mb in raw size. In other words now it started look as cross-platform lightweight .NET platform, it's a pity that cross-platform feature was not the design case 7 or 8 years ago and now current .NET runtime contains many hardcoded MS specific things, like COM, reference to many specific to Windows API etc. On other platforms they will need to simulate it. It explains the fact that Mac installation is 10Mb in contrast to 4Mb of Windows one. For comparison browser specific Silverlight native code (slr.dll) is only 100K for both IE and Netscape browser, (50K in zip), but code providing cross-platform OS native environment > 6Mb in archive. Thanks, Vadim. To finally set cross over WPF/E-Silverlight today I installed alpha 1.1 and… surprise for me: now it’s something else, now it’s what I expected from Feb preview before and didn’t see at all. Now it contains .NET runtime like mscorlib (2Mb – the same size as it was in .NET 1.0) System and brothers with scripting. It will need in some platform neutral UI controls library, ala nowadays Windows Forms and better communication services, but it’s not going to be very expensive – few Mb in raw size.

In other words now it started look as cross-platform lightweight .NET platform, it’s a pity that cross-platform feature was not the design case 7 or 8 years ago and now current .NET runtime contains many hardcoded MS specific things, like COM, reference to many specific to Windows API etc. On other platforms they will need to simulate it. It explains the fact that Mac installation is 10Mb in contrast to 4Mb of Windows one. For comparison browser specific Silverlight native code (slr.dll) is only 100K for both IE and Netscape browser, (50K in zip), but code providing cross-platform OS native environment > 6Mb in archive.

Thanks,
Vadim.

]]> By: Vadim Melnik http://flexblog.faratasystems.com/2007/05/01/microsoft-hits-hard-in-the-ria-space/comment-page-1#comment-13952 Vadim Melnik Tue, 01 May 2007 23:18:47 +0000 http://flexblog.faratasystems.com/?p=189#comment-13952 4Mb is pure Microsoft style, they didn't worry about code size at all in previous products, and probably WPF/E-Silverlight is not exception there. For example .NET framework 1.0 runtime installation was about 20Mb, and in my understanding it somehow corresponds to functionality necessary for today's RIAs in .NET . Multiple languages in .NET is good for advertising and academic purposes but in real life primary .NET language is C#. Also multiple languages support is not going to be very expensive. .NET engine plays language neutral CIL bytecode, and only runtime environment specific to certain language is necessary. In .NET 1.0 JScript+VB runtime size was about 2Mb in raw format, and probably 1Mb in installation. Funny enough that technically MS has good .NET-based platform for RIAs since .NET 1.0 (>5 years) now it's ClickOnce, but unfortunately with bad karma, it's not cross-platform solution and has many security restrictions. And now they trying to reincarnate this http://www.sellsbrothers.com/wahoo/ on the same engine/ideas in bottom. What is result of this game in technical aspect? Thanks, Vadim. 4Mb is pure Microsoft style, they didn’t worry about code size at all in previous products, and probably WPF/E-Silverlight is not exception there. For example .NET framework 1.0 runtime installation was about 20Mb, and in my understanding it somehow corresponds to functionality necessary for today’s RIAs in .NET .

Multiple languages in .NET is good for advertising and academic purposes but in real life primary .NET language is C#. Also multiple languages support is not going to be very expensive. .NET engine plays language neutral CIL bytecode, and only runtime environment specific to certain language is necessary. In .NET 1.0 JScript+VB runtime size was about 2Mb in raw format, and probably 1Mb in installation.

Funny enough that technically MS has good .NET-based platform for RIAs since .NET 1.0 (>5 years) now it’s ClickOnce, but unfortunately with bad karma, it’s not cross-platform solution and has many security restrictions. And now they trying to reincarnate this http://www.sellsbrothers.com/wahoo/ on the same engine/ideas in bottom. What is result of this game in technical aspect?

Thanks,
Vadim.

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